Editing RBE10K/Concerns/global-RBE vs local-RBE, abundance, inferior variety and technology - by TZM activist/ru
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Активист ПВ (Проект Венера) ставит проблему сравнения ПВ и RBE10K в подходе к внедрению системы, вопросах изобилия, свободы передвижения, разнообразия, худших технологий. | Активист ПВ (Проект Венера) ставит проблему сравнения ПВ и RBE10K в подходе к внедрению системы, вопросах изобилия, свободы передвижения, разнообразия, худших технологий. | ||
− | == Видео на YouTube о так называемых "локальных РОЭ" == | + | |
+ | == Post: Видео на YouTube о так называемых "локальных РОЭ" == | ||
YouTube post: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_SxJSxMutc Peter Joseph and Roxanne Meadows on "local RBEs"] | YouTube post: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_SxJSxMutc Peter Joseph and Roxanne Meadows on "local RBEs"] | ||
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Как это может показаться привлекательным кому-то, когда такая коммуна будет как «шоу» для РОЭ?? | Как это может показаться привлекательным кому-то, когда такая коммуна будет как «шоу» для РОЭ?? | ||
− | + | People would only think "nah, why would i want to give up my freedom, my technology and my variety?" | |
− | === | + | === Bradly Nakagawa === |
+ | More of an association fallacy than an ad hominem, right? But to the point that I'm done arguing, you're right. | ||
− | + | Thomas A. Anderson> you're misquoting me. i said you're out of arguments. | |
− | + | === Thierry Besson === | |
+ | I just don't buy the fact that we can get a critical mass of people just by putting out the information - I think we need to show people. There are a HUGE amount of people our there who see this as communism and I can't see them being persuaded otherwise just by marketing. Roxanne Meadow's comment about a country working in isolation doesn't quite explore the possibilities. Why would any community or nation aim to put up walls and isolate itself. The model would be abundance and that abundance should be able to spill over current borders and out of communities to neighbours as the philosophy of sharing is inherent. | ||
− | === | + | === The Rbe10k Project === |
− | + | Living in a local commune will, first and foremost, provide peace of mind to its inhabitants that they're not contributing directly or indirectly, any more than from those resources acquired from the monetary market system to kickstart the community, to any type of ecological degradation or the extinction of species, or contributing to climate change. Leaving that aside, compared to living in the monetary market system today, would: | |
− | + | :"Restrict people's freedom to travel" | |
− | + | It would restrict people's ability to travel to locations outside RBE10K communities. The monetary market system already restrict 90+% of the world's people's freedom to travel because "in the monetary market system, a person's freedom is restricted to the person's purchasing power", and the reality today (and increasingly in the future if the inequality trends continue) is that people cannot travel anywhere other than from home to work and back, and every now and then to the beach, or the mountain, if at all. | |
− | + | RBE10K Project's settlement inhabitants will have the freedom to travel between RBE10K Project's settlements, nationally by truck or Wikispeed/OSE Car/OSCar/bicycle/foot to the beach, the mountains, the parks of nearby cities, street shows of nearby cities, or invited to a number of activities like sports competitions, government offices to provide gratis training or support, nearby villages to provide gratis permaculture training, nearby town's people's houses to provide gratis seminars of whatever, or support of whatever, or help with whatever (yes, jeopardizing the local monetary market economies, governments will be upset by this and may limit these actions to certain activities only). I believe my point is made. Next. | |
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− | + | :"provide less variety abundance" | |
+ | The monetary market system provides a wealth of variety for the purposes of marketing, not for the purposes of health and wellbeing. RBE10K Project settlements will have a abundance and variety of sustainable goods according to the carrying capacity of its land's resources, and the needs of its people, according to the emerged and consensuated documented list of needs (has TVP come up with a comprehensive list of these yet? RBE1OK Project will aim at having one ready in 18 months from now, at most. | ||
+ | Extra variety than what the community will provide in abundance according to people's needs will come from artistic expressions, including personal farming (e.g. possibly cattle will only be raised and butchered by a community subgroup of people who's comfortable killing animals, for their own consumption or to share with friends who will eat but not dare to kill or uncomfortable butchering; this is likely to be so because the E in RBE10K is from "Economy" as in "Economize", and there is no economy in raising cattle for food, so it will be most likely relegated to a personal or subgroup art and not an activity managed by the system of intelligent management of available resources). I believe the point is made. | ||
− | : | + | :"provide a lower level of technology" |
− | + | In every RBE10K Project settlement, the technology available for personal use (e.g. tablet computers) and for sharing (e.g. desktop machines, storage servers, OSE equipment, lab equipment, etc) will be sufficient to satisfy needs, as per the emerged and consensuated criteria for Human need, and for the needs of the community to be fully self-sufficient and individually, socially, settlement-wise, and ecologically sustainable. Outside what's specific for satisfying technical and technological Human need (which by and large, in a monetary market system 90+% of the world's population live without these covered), there will be locally produced gadgetry by hobbyists, like robots using scrap metals and discarded electronics purchased in bulk during the purchasing stage immediately prior to every settlement, upon availability of course, and specialized electronics using 3D semiconductor printers. | |
− | + | == Thomas A. Anderson: "Real" RBE, supply and demand, high technological level, bad advertising == | |
− | : | + | A localized community doesn't meet the definition of an RBE, because a localized community simply CAN NOT fulfill many of the things that a REAL RBE does. some examples: |
− | + | * in an RBE, people have the freedom to travel the planet, live in different places, and so on. in a localized community, people are restricted to one place. | |
− | + | * in an RBE, there is a dynamic economy of supply and demand, which allows for very individualistic products and lifestyles (example: there can be 100 different flavors of soy yoghurt available). in a localized community of a few thousand people, it won't be possible to create a great number individualized products, it will have to be much more centrally planned and uniformed (it won't be economically feasible to create 100 different flavors of soy yoghurt in a community of a few thousand people). | |
+ | * in an RBE, there can be a very high technological level, because every place within the global RBE has access to any technology available on the planet. in a localized community, you can't locally produce things like microprocessors, so it will either need to import (with money!) those things from the outside (which means it's not a moneyless economy at all), or it will be rather low-tech. | ||
− | + | These are only a few of the major differences between an RBE and a localized community. overall, a localized community will never be able to deliver the levels of freedom, abundance and technology that an RBE can provide. therefore, calling a localized community an "RBE" doesn't make sense, because it sends the wrong message. it tells people "look, this is what an RBE is", when in actuality an RBE is 1000 times more. | |
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− | + | Calling a localized community an "RBE" is actually bad advertising. | |
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− | === | + | === The Rbe10k Project: Dynamic supply and demand === |
− | + | In terms of dynamic supply and demand, that's one of the features of the software of intelligent management of available resources. The different with TVP's is that TVP's will implement its system treating the Earth's resources, which is TVP's particular top-down imposing-on-everyone implementation style. RBE10K Project's implementation style, repeat, is voluntarist and horizontal. These two are unreconcilable differences, which do not relate, and TVP's RBE "flavour" will always be different to RBE10K's RBEM "flavour" in this sense. You may want to insist on a "real" RBE and a "non-real" RBE, however your insistence in this aspects speaks more about your lack of understanding of linguistics, semantics and semiotics, as RBE is a symbol, and as all symbols it doesn't carry an "implicit" meaning. Meaning is given by a cultural group when there is a general common understanding given as meaning to a given symbol. E.g. door = puerta = porta same meaning, three different words (in different languages); thong (US: small female underwear) != thong (AU: flip flops) different meaning, same word (different cultures give different meanings to the same word). Your insistence on the "real RBE" is like someone from US insisting on the "real thong", and telling the Australians that they employ the word incorrectly, that thongs are not flip flops. I hope you get the equivalence! | |
− | === | + | === The Rbe10k Project: High technological level === |
− | + | In an RBE, as compared to a MMS, there is a "greater potential" for developing higher technology. RBE10K settlements will not remain forever hippy communes, that's simply a strategy for getting them started. As years go by, with resources available locally and exchanges (not trade) of excess resources or requested resources from other settlements, engineers and scientists living in these settlements (trained either at MMS universities, or locally at RBE10K's universities [proposed to be, like TVP's round city, part of the the town's center building, which will be the public buildings, "proposed" at this time {not decided yet} to be ten large Earthships disposed in a circle, to centralize and economize common features like water catchment, sewage treatment, etc, so that these features are scaled up and shared between all buildings]), using these resources obtained either locally (sustainably) or remotely (sustainably as well) will be able to create possibly outstanding technology. | |
− | === | + | === The Rbe10k Project: Opposing binaries ("sending the wrong message") === |
− | + | Whilst MMS's paradigm is most influenced by property and trade, RBEM's paradigm is mostly influenced by academia and the emergent and symbiotic aspects of natural law. In terms of academia, the current paradigm, especially in what deals with the social sciences, is the Post-structuralism, which opposes and supersedes Humanism, which is the current dominant paradigm in most of society (which considering it is mostly influenced by MMS, it is not completely unreasonable to consider that the current MMS paradigm is Humanism). | |
− | + | Humanism is characterized by opposing binaries, such as right and wrong, real and fake/not-real, good and bad/evil, truth and lies, man and woman, adult and child. The language used by a person easily identifies what kind of dominant paradigm the person is influenced by, either MMS, or the Academic. If you observe your posts from this perspective, objectively and detached from your ego, you'll notice how often you use binary logic and opposing binaries. This is not a negative criticism, it is simply an observation that perhaps enriches your self awareness (and perhaps you prefer to believe I'm mocking you, which is not the case at all). Just stick to the evidence, analyse your posts and count the words, you'll see a significant frequency. | |
− | + | I tend to consider that since Academia (sciences and arts) will be the most influential aspect of of an RBEM, Academia's Post-structuralism will tend to seep into people's way of thinking, with has to do with tolerance, protection, and even embracement of differences, encouragement of individuality rather than normality, consideration of grey areas in every aspect of reality, patience, compassion, critical thinking, open mindedness, etc. Society will change significantly in this aspect, and it will come from the environment. The expectation that there will be a paradigm shift whilst the MMS is dominant may not be realistic, because the environment is the greatest influence in terms of paradigm, and MMS thrives in binaries, it has always had, for some reason (this may be speculation, though). | |
− | + | So, finally, in terms of "bad advertising", I prefer to consider there is no such thing. The advertising will be convenient for RBEM in general, although it would logically be a bias towards the RBE10K's fundamental values of horizontality, voluntarism, and openness, which may not be great publicity for TVP's particular implementation approach which is directed, imposing, and closed. The fact that there will be a bias in the promotion of RBE10K's particular RBEM approach integrated to the project's fundamental values, is not a bad thing per se, it is just not convenient for TVP. Well, too bad! Although RBE10K's has best wishes for TVP's, it has, obviously, a preference for its own approach, since its supporters would much rather have a not-completely-global but self-determining and respectful of differences, personal values and choices (although it wouldn't cease to invite and seduce those who prefer to remain outside, and would try to intercede and protect the environment when those who prefer to remain outside are recklessly causing havoc in the ecosystem or threatening species or the delicate atmospheric balance that we need for maximizing the chances of stable and sustainable global weather. | |
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− | + | There will be an unavoidable competition between RBE10K and TVP, and this competition is not caused by RBE10K's open attitude, but a direct result and exclusive function of TVP's preference to remain closed and compete rather than collaborate, undermining the consistency of the system that they propose to implement. This is the most common criticism, in my experience, of frustrated ex-TVP activists and supporters, and I believe you yourself are likely to have the same (in your own words: "TVP is very limited in their views, and they are an ungrateful bunch"). People will decide, in the end, what the preference of the majority is. If TVP's approach becomes dominant and implements, it would be sad for those who don't willingly accept a change in their lifestyle, but at least the Earth will be out of danger, which is in the end the absolute most important objective that we all share in our sisterhood of RBEM implementation supporters. |